Building a Political Voice: Ron Millar on Humanism and Advocacy

Voice Over:
[0:01] This is Glass City Humanist, a show about humanism, humanist values, by a humanist. Here is your host, Douglas Berger. Did you know the American Humanist Association has a political action committee that endorses and donates to candidates that share our humanist values? We talked to the PAC manager, Ron Millar, and find out how the Center for Freethought equality works, and how it can help us oppose white Christian nationalists. Glass City Humanist is an outreach project of the Secular Humanists of Western Lake Erie, building community through compassion and reason for a better tomorrow.

Music:
[0:42] Music

Doug:
[0:59] Our guest today is Ron Millar. He is the political and PAC manager for the Center for Freethought Equality, and he brings over 40 years of experience working for nonprofit education and advocacy groups in the nation’s capital, including serving as the associate director of the Secular Coalition for America from 2005 to 2009, and he has been with the Center for Freethought Equality since 2016. Thank you for joining us today, Ron.

Ron:
[1:28] Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.

Doug:
[1:32] I’d like to start off when I talk to leaders in the free thought movement, people that get paid for a living for doing this job. I’d like to start off by getting your origin story. How did you come to free thought and why did you decide to work for the Center for Free Thought not equality?

Ron:
[1:54] Well, I grew up in a fundamentalist church in western Pennsylvania, got disillusioned with that. Fairly early on, you know, and I went to college in my hometown. So, you know, I was still had connections with folks, but, you know, I had long left believing in God or at least their version of God at that time. And so then I moved down to D.C. in 1982, worked on a Ralph Nader magazine for an internship and then just sort of explored things, quickly came to realize, you know, that I’m an atheist and have embraced that ever since.

Ron:
[2:36] In a midi-midlife crisis, I went back and got a PhD because at the time I was giving away money for people to go to grad school. And so Virginia Tech opened a center near me. So I went, got my PhD, left the job that I was at. And when I got out of that, when I finished the PhD, I saw an ad for the director of the Secular Coalition for America, the atheist group. But I was like, wow, I’ve done a lot of, you know, left-wing political stuff. But it was the first time I’d seen an advocacy group for the atheist and humanist communities. And so, you know, I’ve got to check this out. So I applied. I interviewed with folks. And I said, no, I don’t want to be the executive director. I said, you know, I don’t want to be the face of atheism and humanism. But I think once you hire somebody, you’re going to need somebody to do all the background work, the logistics, the administration, the research. And so I came on board. They hired Lori Littman Brown as the executive director, and it was a great choice. And then I came on board as her assistant.

Ron:
[3:44] I think I worked for like a thousand bucks a month for a couple of months until we raised enough money to give me a salary. And then the secular coalition continued to grow. so I was with them for several years and then um.

Ron:
[3:58] In 2016, Roy Speckhardt called me up because he had formed this political action committee that’s tied to the American Humanist Association through the Center for Freethought Equality, which is the advocacy arm of the American Humanist Association. So for IRS purposes, there’s the C3 Education Group, and then there’s the C4 Advocacy Group. And the major difference is for the C3, the American Humanist Association, when you make your contribution, you can deduct it on your taxes. For the C4s, the Center for Freethought Equality and like groups, they’re still nonprofits, but they’re not tax deductible. So that’s the key difference between the C3s and the C4s. And also, with a C4, we could have a political action committee, which is my focus. So the Center for Freethought Equality has a PAC. So that’s what I manage. And so I joined that in 2016 and have been there ever since.

Doug:
[5:00] Yeah. And, you know, listeners should know, you know, unlike some religious people, some churches, which is we actually follow the IRS code and make sure everything is separated and don’t co-mingle. And C4s, they do the political stuff. C3s, does the charity work.

Ron:
[5:20] Exactly.

Doug:
[5:22] All right. Now, will you explain what the Center for Free Thought Equality is? It’s like a foundation or something like similar. And so what’s the political action committee part? What exactly do you do with that function?

Ron:
[5:38] Well, the Center for Freethought Equality, it’s like I said, it is the advocacy group. So we have you can lobby as a C4 all day long up on Capitol Hill or in state governments. And then the other side is you could do independent expenditures and have an affiliated political action committee. So our PAC is registered with the Federal Election Commission, like all PACs are, and we can give money directly to candidates who we endorse. And so we’re distributing Atheist and Humanist funds to Atheist and Humanist candidates and allied candidates. of it. The key is just to make sure that they understand that we are a constituency. And also it’s to encourage members of our community to run for office because, you know, there’s still a lingering bias against atheists and humanists. It’s not the taboo it once was to be an elected official and an atheist, but the bias is still there. One way to get rid of that bias is to have respected leaders who people know and say, oh, that doesn’t fit my preconceived notion of what an atheist is. And so, you know, we’re working to bring down that barrier.

Doug:
[6:52] Yeah, and you were talking about the donations to the PAC. Those get recorded with the Federal Election Commission, correct?

Ron:
[7:00] Exactly. We file with the FEC every donation we take in and every expense that we make. Yeah, it’s all tracked by the Federal Election Commission.

Doug:
[7:13] And it’s all public information.

Ron:
[7:15] Exactly.

Doug:
[7:16] Yeah, unlike some of our religious opponents, yes, it’s all public information. Right.

Ron:
[7:23] You can have super PACs. You can have these groups that do independent expenditures that do it without verification of who’s making the donations or even where the money is really going. But no, we’re above board.

Ron:
[7:39] And we’re obviously a tiny little political action committee. But we get recognized, and so we’re doing some good work.

Doug:
[7:48] And I happened to check out your annual report, which is available on the AHA website, and I noted it said that the PAC endorsed 20 candidates in 2023, and 12 had been endorsed in prior elections, and of those 32 endorsed candidates, 25 were members of the humanist and atheist community. Community um how does the uh pack go about deciding what candidate to endorse what’s the what’s the process sure um

Ron:
[8:27] What I do is, you know, every cycle I send out candidate questionnaires with a little cover letter talking about who we are and what we hope to do and some background material on our community and what it is to run as an atheist and humanist. We have a little guide for atheist and humanist candidates that we include. So it really is a big fishing expedition. I just send out to candidates who are running for Congress and also at the state level. So that’s almost 8000 seats that are out there. And then I wait to see who responds back to me. And actually, we’ve in this cycle and in. Oh, you were probably looking at the immediate last cycle, which.

Doug:
[9:12] Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was 2023. Yeah.

Ron:
[9:15] So that’s an off cycle year. So in the, you know, the even numbered years, we endorse over 200 candidates. About half of them are atheists and humanists. So, yeah. So in the off years, obviously, there’s fewer seats up. So we don’t endorse quite as many candidates. But in those even years when people are running for president and running for Congress and running for state legislature, we endorse quite a few candidates.

Ron:
[9:42] And we give away about $40,000 a cycle to candidates. So like I said, it’s not, you know, I’ve been at FEC meetings, trainings, and people are like, oh, man, you know, we’re in the low six figures. And I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear your problems. We’re working to get to that level. Uh, but, um, but no, we, we, we’re getting noticed. Um, and just for some background, um, when I was working at the secular coalition for America, we had a little contest and we wanted to find out who was the highest elected official in the country. Um, and this is in 2007 and we had no idea who, what we would get back. We, we went out to people and say, you know, recommend, who do you think is the highest elected official who identifies with our community? And, you know, we thought, well, maybe we’ll get a dog catcher or something like that, you know, something. But it turned out Pete Stark was recommended. Lori Lippman Brown and I talked to him and his staff, and he agreed to make an announcement that he indeed did not believe in a higher power. And he was the first member of Congress ever to identify with our community. to be. And, um.

Ron:
[10:57] Ten years later, in my sending out candidate questionnaires, I got another bite in Congress. And that was Jared Huffman from the 2nd Congressional District in California. And he had sort of a, in our questionnaire that we have a dozen or so questions, he put something a little vague in one of the questions that intrigued me. And so we had an email exchange back and forth. And then we had dinner. And he was like talking about how, you know, he wants to identify with us. You know, he had people he needed to talk to first, you know, family members, colleagues, constituents. You know, he had a great plan and we helped him work through that. And then he made the announcement that he was a humanist and agnostic. So it took us 10 years to get the second person. We still don’t have a third. We’re working on that in Congress. But, you know, Jared Huffman’s been doing great work. So again, it’s all about fishing, sending out, letting people know that we’re there. Having them send back our candidate questionnaires, and then contacting them and making sure that they’re comfortable identifying them. Because, you know, sometimes I hear people say, oh, you know, don’t post me on your website yet, because I haven’t told my great Aunt Martha that I’m an atheist.

Doug:
[12:14] Yeah, many people, yeah, they just don’t understand that a lot of us have that issue where, you know, we may identify as a humanist or an atheist, but maybe our family members don’t. Exactly. And we don’t want them to find out in the newspaper.

Ron:
[12:30] Right, right. And I’ve had people like, especially early on, like when I would send out the candidate questionnaires, I get a phone call and said, how do you know I’m an atheist that I have to reassure them quickly that I’m sending out to everybody. And then they tell me, you know, oh, as long as my mother is still living, I can’t possibly identify or something like that. So it’s rare that it’s about constituents. It’s more about family members that are holding some people back from identifying with us.

Doug:
[12:59] And also, you know, you mentioned about donating money to candidates. Again, in 2023, you listed it as $22,250. How do you decide, you know, do you send the same amount to every candidate or is there a scale? Or how do you decide how much money to donate?

Ron:
[13:20] Well, it varies. The board weighs in on how we make our contributions to the board of the Center for Freethought Equality. You know, we had there was this great candidate in Rhode Island, Aaron Regenberg, who was running a special election in Rhode Island. And so I think we gave him the maximum of five thousand dollars for his campaign. Sadly, he came in second. You know, second is the same as 10th on taking the seat. but it was a hugely crowded special election. But he was a great candidate, so we wanted to max out with him. Other times, the money varies on how likely they are to be successful, how they’re going to use the money, and how closely they identify with our community. So there’s several factors involved in how much money we give out. Okay.

Doug:
[14:16] Okay. And, and you have identified, um, 125, I think you said now 200 elected officials.

Ron:
[14:25] No, we’ve, we’ve endorsed this cycle, I think over 200 candidates, but, but when I started in 2016, we knew of five state legislators who identified with us, you know, and that’s the entire country. Um, so now we’re up over 80 state legislators and one member of Congress, who identify with us. That’s been building over the years, but we need another 1,500 in those two spheres to get parity with our population, the percentage of our population. So we got a lot of work to do. There are over 500,000 local elected officials, and I just don’t have the capacity to reach out to those folks. But people find me out, And, you know, we endorse local candidates where we’re allowed to. There’s some places we can’t endorse local elected officials. But we, you know, we do have a list on our website of all the federal, state, and local elected officials we know who identify with us. And so you can check that out on our website at cfeequality.org.

Doug:
[15:34] And uh so what happens if you have a list of the elected officials and then later on maybe in the same year uh somebody comes back and tells you that they don’t want to be listed anymore um i mean because i i comes to mind for uh soon to be former u.s senator christian Semina, she ran as an atheist and now she distances herself from that. What would happen if somebody came to you and said, you know, I don’t want to be listed anymore?

Ron:
[16:06] If someone, you know, suddenly did not want to be listed or converted to some religion i would gladly take them off the list i’m not i i’m not the arbiter of how people identify uh we really want people to be their authentic selves and um you know uh if they’re not comfortable first of all if they’re not comfortable identifying with us they don’t go on the list i only uh people who are completely comfortable and who give me their permission are added to the list um and cinnamon never made the list, because by the time I was starting on this, she had already decided that she wasn’t going to talk about God, even though when she was in the state legislature, it wasn’t a problem. But when she went to Congress, and actually, I don’t know if she would answer all our questions correctly, because we’re a fairly progressive caucus. So we don’t just talk about being an atheist or a humanist. We also talk about several issues. And we want to make sure that people identify with the values that are associated with the Center for Free Thought Equality, and the American Humanist Association, too.

Doug:
[17:10] So you make that determination based on the total thing, values, and whether or not they identify. Party affiliation doesn’t play into it, correct?

Ron:
[17:21] No, I mean, we have endorsed from both parties, although because the society is so divided and politics are so divided at this point, you’re not going to get many folks from one of the major parties because, one, they force out people who might identify with the atheist and humanist community. We did have a candidate in a state who identified with us and was primaried out this year and lost his seat because he identified with our community partially.

Ron:
[17:57] Also, I think he might have been a little too progressive for his fellow party members in that state. Right. So, yeah, we it’s not just being an atheist and humanist. You have to also have the values that the vast majority of atheists hold.

Voice Over:
[18:15] For more information about the topics in this episode, including links used, please visit the episode page at glasscityhumanist.show.

Doug:
[18:29] And I noticed that, you know, we were talking earlier before we started that you had a booth at the Democratic National Convention that was just a week or so ago. Go, you partnered with the Association of Secular Elected Officials. How does that add to your work that you do working with that group?

Ron:
[18:51] Well, sure. When we created, I think we were up to like 60 or maybe 70 state elected officials. And Leonard Pressburg came to me and said, we have this significant group of people. Let’s form an organization where people can network, work, get to know one another, talk about the issues they deal with, and create sort of a, ideal policies that they could share. And so we created the Association of Secular Elected Officials.

Ron:
[19:24] Actually, at the Democratic Convention, it was just under our banner with the Center for Freethought Equality, although one of the board members, Christiana DeLeon, volunteered at the booth with us so they had a presence they had their materials out um you know and we had lots of materials out um to promote the atheist and humanist community and i think it was the first time that.

Ron:
[19:50] You know the the atheist and humanist community was represented in the exhibit area of a major political party so so we had lots of folks were eager to learn about us um taking our little stickers and um and materials although um I was always hoping that like the camera would zoom in while they’re filming the convention and be one of the you know I’m an atheist and I vote sticker on somebody but i didn’t see that sadly that was one of my hopes coming out of this thing but.

Ron:
[20:22] No we picked up a lot of new members um for the center for freethought equality found out a few more local elected officials who identify with us had some of our endorsed candidates uh visit with us at the table and some of the elected officials um who we’ve identified over time come visit us even uh congressman jared huffman stopped in for a visit so so it was People were enthusiastic, and it was nice to see because the conventions can be very religious. And they felt that their voice was, you know, at least there’s a little corner in the room where they found their people and could be their authentic selves. So I was really pleased to be there. And, you know, we got to go to the evening shows, too, because the day shows were at the convention center. Then the evenings was at the sports arenas. And we had our, you know, authorizations to get into the sports arena as special guests.

Ron:
[21:25] You know, there’s delegates, media, honorary guests and special guests. So we were at the bottom of the total poll, but we were still recognized. And Sarah Levin, who’s a co-chair of the Interfaith Council with the Democratic Party, she had two programs that included our community, and they were excellent programs. And also there was the film about white Christian nationalism. She also had that shown through her capacity of the Secular Democrats of America. So Sarah Levin was doing great work there, too. I want to give her a shout-out for her excellent work. And, yeah, no, we had a presence. So that’s a first.

Doug:
[22:12] So you were pleased with the reaction from the attendees to you. Did you have any negative relationships?

Ron:
[22:23] Actually, I didn’t. In particular, two people who were also working the booth with me, they said that there were two incidents where people said something a little off. But one of the most interesting people to come up to me was this woman who said, you know, I had an epiphany last year. I was with one of my people who I work out with, and she told me she was an atheist. And I said, she said her immediate response was, you worship Satan? And she said, no, my exercise partner was very patient with me and explained what atheism meant. And she said, I just couldn’t believe that that was my first response. I mean, that was my conditioning. And she said, I just wanted to say, you know, I’m an ally, and, you know, I’m so glad you’re here. And so that’s the thing. It’s meeting people, explaining things. And again, that bias just goes away once they talk to some folks. So I was really pleased that she was willing to share that with me at the booth.

Doug:
[23:23] And did you have an opportunity to attend the Republican convention or that was never an issue?

Ron:
[23:30] No, it’s not an issue. Like I say, it’s a little the divide in American politics. And there are Republican atheists. So I mean, if I know that they’ve gone in the past to the CPAC convention, and, you know, more power to them to make their presence felt. But it won’t be a place that I’m going.

Doug:
[23:56] And you said that you did gain some leads on some candidates that you hadn’t known about before. Was it that they came up to you or somebody told you about them?

Ron:
[24:06] No, they came up to us. Like I said, it was local elected officials who had never heard of us before because they didn’t ever get my questionnaire by email or by physical USPS mail. So, yeah, no, they were just happy to see that somebody represented them at the national level and wanted to be listed with the rest of our elected officials.

Doug:
[24:32] Now, were you disappointed when Vice President Harris didn’t specifically call out the nonreligious community in her acceptance speech?

Ron:
[24:43] I’m willing to let it go. um i there was i think hillary clinton mentioned this in an offhand way which was really nice um you know but the first president to ever mention us and it was in obama’s um um, inaugural he included us in 2008 so so we’ve gotten some of that you know again the point of being at the convention is to increase our visibility hopefully that that will get it all the way up

Ron:
[25:14] and realize that we are constituents and that we need to be discussed. But I know.

Doug:
[25:21] They have a lot of ministers and preachers that are part of the party, but I’d like to see some more people from the Freethought community.

Ron:
[25:32] Well, that’s what’s great about Sarah becoming a co-chair of the Interfaith Council. Council, you know, that was a first and she’s helping to change people’s minds about what they think atheists and humanists are and to recognize this as a constituency, she was able to get a resolution through, that that did indeed recognize the atheist humanist community as a constituency and so that was a big uh step also so it’s happening um you know we want it to happen faster obviously uh so when people are out at candidate forums when they’re volunteering for candidates uh when they’re going to the election uh polls wear some atheist humanist agnostic swag a t-shirt a button or something just to show that you’re visible. Because, you know, atheists and humanists are very involved in the political process, but they’re not involved as atheists and humanists. So, you know, being, identifying yourself, making sure your other co-volunteers know who you are and what you stand for will go a long way to, again, removing the bias and getting us recognized as a constituency.

Doug:
[26:45] Yeah, and I also did notice, too, I guess you had some materials available for people that are interested in running for office.

Ron:
[26:52] Yeah, we have a nice guide that you can also find on our website. You know, it’s a guide for atheist humanists running for office and also for allies, just to know who we are as a community, issues that are going to come up for you in a campaign, and, you know, how to make the most of the campaign. So we have that. And we’ve also done polling um i had a guy in west texas early on who said oh i can’t possibly come out as an atheist because you know i lose two-thirds of the constituency just by having the d next to my name and then more because i’m pro-choice more because i’m lgbtq friendly and i was thinking well you know who else is out there to lose if you suddenly say you’re an atheist because you’ve already lost such a huge portion so i didn’t have any data for him and so we decided to do a poll and we We commissioned a poll, and it found out that people are much more focused on policy issues than they are on religion. So there’s still a bias, so you can still lose a few people, but it’s not a big portion of people. It’s really the policies that candidates hold is what folks are interested in. So I was glad that that conversation came up, and we were able to do a scientific poll to have some data for people.

Doug:
[28:08] Yeah, because I remember not too long ago when, you know, if you got labeled an atheist or even a humanist, you know, that you were not likely to win your election or even make it onto the ballot sometimes.

Ron:
[28:24] Yeah, I mean, Gallup has been doing a poll, and I hope I get these numbers right, but like in 1958, they said, would you vote for a well-qualified, and then they would have a bunch of different descriptors, and atheist was one of them. And I think in 1958, only 18% of the population would vote for a well-qualified atheist candidate for president.

Ron:
[28:44] In the last time they did that uh questionnaire we we went up to 60 so there’s still issues uh there’s still the bias like i’m saying uh but it is it is disappearing part of it is demographics we’re becoming a bigger portion of the american population um and that frightens some people in this in our country um and there’s also that big gray area of what pew research calls the nuns you know people who don’t affiliate with any religion some believe in god some don’t but they’re really i’d like to call them apotheists they don’t really don’t know and don’t care um you know if there is a god it’s just not a part of their lives and so yeah the demographics are with us um to to change this and we just got to push forward because um it’s pretty dark times i I mean, we got we got to actually deal with climate change. We got to prevent, you know, authoritarian takeovers of the country because white Christian nationalism is a real movement and they want to have power in this country. And, you know, if they take over, we might be lucky enough to be allowed to stay in the country. But we don’t know that for sure. But they want it’s all about power for white Christian nationalism. And it’s a. It’s a.

Ron:
[30:07] Constituency built on hate. I mean, they’re bigoted, they’re racist, misogynistic, anti-science, xenophobic, and homophobic. And, you know, you sort of pick from that cafeteria style who you hate the most and join up with the white Christian nationalists. You might not be so much on some of the categories, but, you know, you just want to unite with all the other haters out there. And it’s been very

Ron:
[30:34] effective, and they’re a very scary group, as we know, from January 6th. So that’s why our community has to get more engaged, even though we are highly engaged in the electoral process, but more engaged, more visible, and we’ve got to run for office. Like I said, there’s 500,000 local seats out there that you can run for. And then there’s a host of appointed seats that are out there, too, at your local community. So get involved in the electoral process in your local community, do the basic civics, and then, like I said, the bias will disappear. We’ll be able to promote our values because you’ll be in elected office or appointed office and, you know, we’ll make the country better.

Doug:
[31:21] Earlier, you had mentioned Representative Jared Huffman. He’s a member of the Congressional Freethought Caucus, and I know your group works with the caucus. What exactly does a Freethought Caucus do? Sure.

Ron:
[31:37] When Huffman came, made his announcement that he was an atheist and humanist, he got a lot of support from his colleagues saying, you know, how brave he was to make the announcement. And when Roy Speckhardt and I had dinner with Congressman Huffman before the announcement, we were talking about things we would like to see happen in Congress. And, you know, one of the things was setting up a caucus for the atheist and humanist community. And I said, but you can’t be a caucus of one, you know, one person. But he proved me wrong, because he got such support from colleagues that we had a meeting at his townhouse. House. And, you know, Roy and I were there with Huffman. The next person to come in through the door was Jamie Raskin. And, you know, Jamie Raskin has been great with our community for years.

Ron:
[32:28] And when he came in, he was like, oh, great, a caucus of two. But then as other members of Congress came in, it was just fun to watch his excitement. He was like, you know, this can really be something. So the caucus is working to protect the separation of church and state, the secular character of our government, evidence-based public policy. And also, if people start attacking atheists and humanists, we have a group of allies there who will say, you can’t do that. And also, Huffman’s working right now on a task force for Project 2025 to account of that. And so they’re doing good work. There’s 27, I think, or 28 members of the caucus now. And so it was something I didn’t expect to see happen. And I was thrilled when it came together. And it keeps growing. It’s really fun to watch it grow.

Doug:
[33:22] Yeah, the way that our organized community works, I wouldn’t have been surprised if it was a caucus of two, or a caucus of three,

Ron:
[33:32] You know but yeah.

Doug:
[33:35] I was pleased the way that it’s grown yeah

Ron:
[33:38] Yeah no people are excited about it and you know and and plus huffman and raskin are such great leaders i mean you know they were at at an event at the um, democratic convention and they were just brilliant in talking about white christian nationalism and um yeah it’s just exciting to see them work together uh.

Doug:
[34:04] What’s up for cfe this fall and beyond

Ron:
[34:08] Well we we’ve got all our candidates um we’ll probably add a few more um in the next several weeks but essentially we have our our cohort of 2024 endorsed candidates the key thing to remember member is we’re a membership pack. So we can only tell our members who we’ve endorsed. So I encourage your listeners to join the Center for Freethought Equality, cfequality.org. The great thing is membership is absolutely free. And that way you can see who we’ve endorsed. And, you know, if they’re in your area, you know, get involved with their campaigns, volunteer, make donations to them. And also, we have guides at our website about what you can do as an individual, what you can do as a C3 group, and also about running for office. So just get involved, be engaged. You got to work for the outcome that you want to see happen. You can’t just sit on the sidelines so even if it’s not our candidates people that you you want to see in office get out there and work for them do the volunteering write those checks well nobody writes checks anymore go online make a donation so yeah be involved that’s the key thing.

Doug:
[35:33] All right, Ron. Well, I really appreciate you spending time with us talking about the group and about what PACs are and what the caucus does. And I really hope that people get interested and join and sign up. I mean, you know, I know a lot of people hesitate to get involved in politics because we seem to be so divided. But like you said, it’s very important that our community get involved and let them know that we exist, at least.

Ron:
[36:01] Well, and as we grow, we are the constituency that can take on the white Christian nationals. We are large enough to counter them. We don’t have the money. Leonard Leo, who orchestrated the takeover of the Supreme Court, got one donation of $1.6 billion with a B, a billion-dollar contribution,

Ron:
[36:25] and that’s just one donation. Uh so we have to counter it with numbers and with energy and with perspiration um and and make things happen on the ground because they’ve got us beat by far with the money uh but we can counter them because you know we have the numbers and we just have to be active we can’t sit back we are in such a dire time that we have to be active so so do it thank.

Doug:
[36:58] You thank you again I appreciate it

Ron:
[37:01] All right thank you very much for having me I appreciate the opportunity.

Voice Over:
[37:06] Thank you for listening for more information about the topics in this episode please visit the episode page at glasscityhumanist.show Glass City Humanist is an outreach of the Secular Humanists of Western Lake Erie. Sholi can be reached at humanistswle.org. Glass City Humanist is hosted, written, and produced by Douglas Berger, and he’s solely responsible for the content. Our theme music is Glass City Jam composed using the Amplify Studio. See you next time!

Music:
[37:49] Music