Ohio Legislators Tell Kids Not To Be Gay And To Read Their Bible

[0:01] This is Glass City Humanist, a show about humanism, humanist values, by a humanist. Here is your host, Douglas Berger. We will be talking about how I will be using my particular set of skills to give back to my community and help humanists speak up. Then we look at the latest on the release time religious instruction front, which found the Christian nationalists in the Ohio legislature playing games and combining it with the Don’t Say Gay Bill. Because, you know, religious zealots flock together. Glass City Humanist is an outreach project of the Secular Humanists of Western Lake Erie, building community through compassion and reason for a better tomorrow.

[0:44] Music.

[0:59] One of the things that I think is important for not only humanists but humans in general to do is that if you have a special skill or an affinity for doing something, you’re known for doing something, whatever it is, that you should pass that skill or that niche that you might have pass that on to the community at large. It’s a way of getting your message out, getting your skill out there so that people know. Because a lot of times you see these entrepreneurs that start these companies in their garage. And basically, if you have them tell their story, it says, well, I started doing this and I took it to work. And then people say, hey, could you make one for me? And then eventually then it was a business. So that’s one way. That’s one way you can find, you know, your purpose and your general purpose in life. Find out what you’re happy doing. Maybe you’re in a job you don’t like or whatever.

[2:07] Well, one of the skills that I have is I am a good writer of letters to the editor. I’ve had dozens, dozens of editors to the letter published over the years at the Toledo Blade, The Courier, Columbus Dispatch. I had one printed in a Sandusky newspaper within the last year or two. I had a Lima newspaper, published one. And it’s just something that I’m, I think it’s part of a mesh of my skill, you know, my training as a writer. Because I wrote short stories. I self-published a book. And I took journalism classes in college and advertising. And I just kind of meshed all those skills that I learned over the years. And I’m able to succinctly get these letters to the editor published. And so I also host a podcast. I actually host two podcasts, the one that you’re listening to now. And I also host one that’s called Secular Left, which is mostly politics, more about politics and humanism. So that’s why it’s a separate thing.

[3:32] And I’ve also been interviewed for newspapers. I’ve been interviewed on TV.

[3:40] And I’ve given testimony, well, not in person yet, but I’ve given written testimony for bills that were under consideration in the legislature. I’ve done a lobby day with a secular group where we went and talked to our legislators and things like that. And so those are some of the skills that I’ve picked up along the way.

[4:05] And so I was going to do the last American Humanist Association conference that we just had recently. I had applied to do a presentation on writing letters to the editor because I think that’s a skill. Yeah, you know, argument can be made that newspapers are dying and everything. But the skill that you need for writing letters to the editor, you can use in other places, like comment areas for online stuff. You can use it for letters to the editor for magazines. You know, there’s other areas. You can use them for your own digital, your own blogs, or I don’t think kids do blogs anymore, but your short social media stuff. And so it’s a particular good skill to have. And some people don’t know how to go about doing it. I decided to pass that skill on. Well, I didn’t get picked to do the program for the conference, but they came back to me and they said that they wanted to sponsor a workshop, a separate, totally separate thing, a totally different thing than the conference, than a presentation of a conference. But they wanted me to host and facilitate a workshop.

[5:31] And that would be part of it. It would be learning how to write press releases and letters to the editor.

[5:38] But they also wanted me to talk about podcasting and how to start a podcast and how to be a guest on a podcast. And also in other media, like be interviewed on TV or for newspapers. Then they also wanted me to talk about being an advocate, writing to legislators, doing lobby days. And they wanted me to talk about invocations. I’m not as experienced in invocations. I’ve given maybe one or two, but I do have some friends, such as my friend, the Reverend T.K. Barger at the Toledo Unitarian Church on Glendale. He graciously allowed me to use some examples of invocations that he’s given at different events.

[6:29] And so I’m doing a three-part workshop. It’s going to be three sessions, three different days in January. And so it’s geared towards humanism and humanist leaders. But I think the information that I can impart can help a lot of people, a lot of progressive people, a lot of activists that want to do better with their messaging. A lot of times, you know, that’s the hard part is getting your message out. And so this is going to be a workshop. Now, it’s sponsored and all set up by the American Humanist Association’s Center for Education. And so they are still taking registrations up until the class is full.

[7:25] I haven’t checked recently how many. There’s been quite a few people that have signed up already. But if you want more information about it, the name of the workshop is called Further Reflection, Speak Up Humanists with Douglas Berger. And the dates are going to be January 16th, 23rd, and 30th, starting at 7 o’clock Eastern Time, all three days. And the blurb that they have written up for it is For humanism to grow, we need to speak up, learn how to write effective letters to the editor and press releases, speak clearly in media interviews and podcast episodes, and provide strong invocations and speeches at rallies.

[8:10] And so that’s how it’s broken down. Session one is the written form. Session two is discussion form. And session three is the speech form. And so if you want to get more information about that and to register, check out. It’s a website. It’s bit.ly, B-I-T dot L-Y slash Speak Up Humanists with a capital S, a capital U, and a capital H. And if you go to the show website glasscityhumanist.show I’ll have a link there as well in case you didn’t get that but I hope people get some use out of it I enjoyed putting it together and drafting it up I’m a little bit scared, because I’m not used to teaching a class but we’ll see how it goes so if you’re interested in that kind of, that kind of activity, you know, check it out. And, and hopefully you’ll enjoy it.

[9:16] For more information about the topics in this episode, including links used, please visit the episode page at glasscityhumanist.show.

[9:29] All right, this is gonna sound like I’m a broken record because we’re still as I’m recording this, We are still in the lame duck session of the Ohio legislature, and they are still considering a bill in the Senate education, Ohio Senate Education Committee called Substitute House Bill 8. And the main part of House Bill 8 is, to liken a better word for it, it’s a don’t say gay bill, Ohio’s version.

[10:02] The religious conservatives have dubbed it the parental rights bill because they think that parents don’t have any rights with their children or don’t have enough rights with their children in public school. So they’re creating this law, and a couple things that it does is it prohibits teachers from talking about gender identity and sexual things. It just generically talks about sexual subjects, you know, because these religious conservatives always believe that LGBT, you know, it’s all about sex. It’s all about grooming children for sex. That’s how they think. We know that that’s not true, but that’s how they think. And so it would be that. And then if a child tells a teacher that they want to transition, then the teacher is required to report it to the parents.

[11:00] They did add an amendment to the bill recently that would exempt some, added some exceptions. Like if it conflicts with the federal student privacy law, which is a big thing, or HIPAA. So if a kid tells a guidance counselor, or not a guidance counselor, but tells like the school nurse, then that would be considered HIPAA and she would not have to report it.

[11:34] And the fact is that this House Bill 8 has already passed the House, the Ohio House. It’s in the Senate right now, and the Senate is tinkering with it. So they didn’t have an exception thing in the law when it passed the House. And other things that’s in the bill is it gives a right for parents to question anything that their child is learning. They can have meetings with the superintendent. They can take a look at books and syllabuses and all that stuff. And the funny thing is, parents are already allowed to do that. You know, if you’re worried about Timmy and Tina, what they’re learning at school, you can always make an appointment to go speak to somebody at the school and look at the material. You can always make an appointment to speak to the teacher.

[12:27] You know, you could even show up. You might not get in, you know, because of security and everything nowadays, but you would still, parents have, they have an inherent right to direct the education of their children. Court cases have said it, everything. So what’s the purpose of this bill? Well, this bill is basically to hurt LGBT kids and LGBT families. That is the prime reason for this bill is to hurt them. Because if you can’t talk about it at school, and if a kid is questioning their gender identity or their sexuality, they will have no safe place to talk about it. Because this thing where the teacher and the administration has to tell the family they have to out the kid is without regard to the home life. You know, are these parents, you know, loving parents who want to know everything and want to support their kid? Or are these the type of parents that if you find out that your kid is gay, you kick them out of the house?

[13:39] And worse, you beat the crap out of them. You know, and so for some reason, these religious conservatives get it in their head that, you know, Timmy and Tina are being worked on and turned into gay people.

[13:57] You know, they hear it from the person that won the White House. You know, they hear it from other conservatives. It’s not true. It’s demagoguing an entire group of people. You know, it’s like what they used to do to black people. They used to say some of the same stuff about black people. Black people couldn’t be in the same room with white people because it might rub off. Horrific stuff like that. So that’s House Bill 8. Now, normally, something like that, it already, like I said, it already passed the House. All the Republicans voted for it.

[14:35] And it’d be a done deal, be law, and moving to the governor’s desk, you know, the Senate will sign off on it. Well, like I said, the Senate wanted to tinker with it. And what they did was, you know, I’ve talked about this issue before about release time religious instruction, that there has been a concerted effort by religious conservatives, including Representative Gary Click from Fremont and Representative Josh Williams from the Sylvania Township area, to force school districts to accommodate religious vendors, such as LifeWise Academy. You know, right now, under current law, it’s all up to the school district. If they want to do it, they can put in a policy, and then the religious vendor can come in and take the kids off campus. I totally oppose that. I oppose all kinds of RTRI. It doesn’t matter what religion or if it’s no religion, I think that taking kids out of school in the middle of the school day for something that is not related to school is wrong.

[15:44] And so we’ve been fighting this now, just been this year. That’s when House Bill 445 was introduced, was in, I think, March, February or March. And we lucked out on there because the chairperson, the side note is that the Republicans in the Ohio legislature have been fighting each other recently. And the reason why they’re fighting each other is because the religious zealots like Derek Maron from Monclova Township wanted to be Speaker of the House, and he didn’t get it. And it kind of split the Republican caucus in the Ohio legislature. And one of the fallouts of that is that the current House Speaker, Stevens, is supported by—he had to get votes from Democrats in order to become Speaker. And so Republican extremists had been fighting with the Speaker in different areas. And so what he does is he uses his powers as Speaker to appoint and dismiss chairpeople of different committees. And that’s what happened with the House Primary and Secondary Education Committee when House Bill 445 came up for consideration.

[17:07] And I think it was Representative Lips was the original chairperson. I might be wrong. I forget. And the speaker made a change and dismissed him from the committee and appointed Gail Manning, who is a Republican, as the chair.

[17:26] Well, Gail Manning did not like House Bill 445. She’s a former, I think, school board member or teacher, but she has an education background. She saw how bad that law was and the disruption and everything. She totally understood it. So she used her power as the committee chair to stonewall it. They had the proponent testimony in June, and that was just the proponents. And then they had the opponents and interested party people in November. And that’s when we got to have our say. And she did not schedule another hearing. So basically, that House Bill 445 got sandbagged. It was not going to get out of the committee in time to be voted on by the end of the session. The end of the session, anything that’s been introduced dies at the end of this year.

[18:30] So the religious conservatives, not to be undone, got one of their flunkies on the Ohio Senate Education Committee, Senator Reynolds, to introduce the exact same bill on the Senate side. It was called Senate Bill 293. Same exact bill, didn’t make any changes. And, of course, we had the exact same opposition to it. And so then also in November, it was like a couple of weeks after the House committee hearing, we had a free for all in the Ohio Senate committee, education committee. And that one was proponents, opponents and interested party all at once. Everybody was limited to three minutes that were speaking in person. All I did was just cut and paste everything from my 445 testimony into a 293 testimony and send it to all the appropriate people.

[19:32] And so that’s where we stood. And then we hear, because we’re working with different groups like the ACLU and Honesty for Ohio Education, Then we hear that the Republicans don’t think that 293 was going to get out of committee, that there was one or two people that were holding it up. So what they were going to do is they were going to do what they normally do at the end of a session or when they’re dealing with a controversial topic is they were going to roll it into another bill that’s already been passed.

[20:11] They call it a Christmas tree bill. And sometimes it’s one thing and they add like 50 other things to it. But this one was House Bill 8, which was the Don’t Say Gay bill. And they decided to add on the release time religious instruction stuff from Senate Bill 293 into that bill. And now it’s called an amended or substitute bill, House 8.

[20:39] So they not only made the one change where they were going to change districts may have a bill policy to districts shall have a policy. That wasn’t the only change they made. The other change that they made was that they decided to define what core subjects were to open up more opportunities for LifeWise to disrupt the day. Because there was a lot of school districts that caught on to what LifeWise was doing. And shunted them off to recess and lunch by claiming that all classes were core. Well, their buddies at the Ohio legislature decided to help them out, and now only the main subjects in school are core. Math, reading, health, history, some other things. But the ones that were not core anymore was art, music, library time, computer time, the specials. And see, that’s what the goal for LifeWise Academy is, is to become integrated into the school day as if it was a special.

[21:48] You know, I didn’t know what specials were. This is like a newfangled thing that people talk about with schools. But basically, specials are anything that’s not core. And so you have art and library time, computer time, physical ed, things like that. And so a lot of school districts have four or five specials that they schedule each week. And LifeWise is trying to become one of those specials. So basically, if you weren’t going into LifeWise, if you weren’t going to LifeWise, just like what’s happening now is that you would be shunted into a dark, I like to think of it as a dark room, twiddling your thumbs.

[22:41] And so that’s their ultimate goal. That’s LifeWise’s ultimate goal is to become integrated so much into the school district, public school, that they are like a class, like a normal, regular, everyday class. And they’re not. Their subject matter, the things that they teach, have nothing to do with public education. Nothing. You know, they pretend to teach about character building, but schools already teach character building. It’s already integrated into the other subjects. All they are doing is Bible classes. That’s all LifeWise does is Bible classes, teaching about Jesus, and not just about Jesus generically, but their specific version of Jesus and God, their specific religion.

[23:33] So they decided that’s one of the changes. The other change that they made was that a school district couldn’t unnecessarily burden a student from participating in LifeWise. During the House hearing, Representative Williams said that a school district could do anything that they wanted with their policy. They could have it once a year. They could limit it to people with good grades, people that were well-behaved, that didn’t have any disciplinary actions against them and everything. Well, the people at the Ohio legislature, again, helped out life-wise, and they put in as an amendment that the school board can’t do that. They can’t burden somebody. If they want to go, they get to go, no matter what. They can’t make any special rules. So both Reverend Click and Representative Williams basically lied to us well they would say they didn’t lie because that’s the Senate version of the bill, but they knew it was coming they all talk, they all knew it was coming.

[24:51] So basically somebody like me, a progressive like me, a humanist like me I’m torn because I definitely do not support I definitely do not support a don’t say gay bill. That whole House Bill 8 is just malarkey. Just a big pile of steaming crap. And it hurts people. You should not be passing laws that hurt people. I don’t care what it’s about. You should not, especially kids, school kids, You should not be passing bills that hurt school children. And that’s not even mentioning the religion part in LifeWise Academy. That’s another story. All right, so I’m torn. I hate House Bill 8, and I do not support the RTRI stuff that they added in. So we’re going around and we’re talking, making phone calls, talking to legislators, and we’re working with our partners, Honesty for Ohio Education, ACLU, Quality Ohio, and they are asking us to point out the RTRI stuff. Because believe it or not, there’s more people, more Republicans, that have problems with the RTRI stuff than they have problems with the Don’t Say Gay stuff.

[26:16] So if we want to stop this bill, House Bill 8, from even passing this year, we can gum up the works and get them to not vote for it because of the RTRI stuff. Now, it could, in the end, because they’re supposed to have another hearing this week that I’m recording this, they could take out the RTRI stuff and just go ahead and send the clean, the Speaker Stevens wants a clean bill. Send the clean bill to the Senate floor to be voted on, and then it becomes law, which is bad news for LBGT people. Good news for people like me that are opposed to RTRI because they probably won’t be passing an RTRI bill this year. And so, like I said, I’m torn.

[27:07] It does. It really bothers me that I have to make that choice. What do they call that? a Sophie’s Choice? Does that sound like a Sophie’s Choice? You know, you’re like, you hate the whole thing, but you have to pick one or the other. And you know, you’re not going to make any, you’re not going to convince anybody on the other part because they all hate gay people. But you get these Christian nationalists, they start fighting amongst themselves about what religion is the one religion, and that’s the main disagreement with it. You know, Catholics don’t like it because they’re not teaching Catholicism.

[27:48] More extremists, more to the right evangelicals don’t like it because you’re not teaching their version of religion. You know, and that’s what you do sometimes in politics. And you see it every day. You play different groups against other groups like that to try to undermine support for something. You know, it sounds dirty-handed, it sounds like a cheat, but that’s basically what politics is. You know, it’s working in a coalition and undermining the other coalition. You know, fairly, you try to do it fairly. You don’t make stuff up, but that’s what you try to do. So, not sure how that’s going to turn out. I just have a feeling it’s going to be a bad Christmas for the LGBT community. Because I really think my guess is that they’re going to they really want that anti LGBT kids bill. They really want it. Because, like I said, it already passed the House. It’s been sitting around for two years. They really want to give that fresh meat to their base so that they can go and hurt kids in public school even more so than they already get hurt.

[29:07] And my position on RTRI could benefit from that. And I’m probably, I’m going to be happy that if we can get the RTRI stuff put off, but I’m really going to feel bad that we have to do it on the backs of the LGBT community. But we did check with the partners. We did check with ASLU and Equality Ohio, and they’re fine with it because they know, So you’re not going to dissuade a Republican religious zealot away from hurting gay people. You’re just not going to persuade them not to do it. And so there’s more chance. And we could hit the trifecta where we muck it up enough that they don’t want to pass it.

[29:54] And the zealots, they dig themselves a bigger hole and then nothing gets passed. That would be the best result.

[30:06] Music.

[30:13] So after I got done recording that previous segment, there was movement on the bill in the Senate committee. It had some additional amendments made to it. One of the amendments was that it would allow school districts to require a background check of any volunteers that work with this public entity that does the RTRI, the RTRI vendor. They did remove an amendment that had defined what core classes were. It also removed a previous amendment that basically said that a school district couldn’t prevent somebody from attending a class. They couldn’t make it hard for them to leave school to go to the class, which wasn’t an actual problem, but that’s what they did. So what they did was they put in the part about requiring background checks, or the school could require background checks, may require background checks. And the other part that they added to it was that it requires school districts to collaborate with religious RTRI vendors. It doesn’t define what collaborate means.

[31:39] In general, when they were talking about it, they were saying that a school would have to discuss it with the vendor to get to a particular, you know, decide on a particular time in order to have the program. So those were the two main changes to that bill. And it passed out of committee right along party lines. All the Republicans voted for it, I think, pretty much. and all the Democrats voted against it. So it moved to the floor of the Senate, Ohio Senate, and that was in the afternoon, like three, yeah, it was about three o’clock or so when they were discussing it on the floor.

[32:27] And there was quite a few senators that were opposed to it. There was quite a few senators that agreed to the changes, and some of the speeches that were given were pretty good.

[32:46] Might queue those up for a later episode and go over some of them because they were pretty good. But in the end, the Ohio Senate voted for the bill with the changes. So what that meant was that now it would go back to the House where they would have to either concur with the changes, that means agree to them, and then the bill would be passed and it would move on to the governor to be signed into law. Or they could deny concurrence and then it would be sent to a conference committee where representatives of the House and the Senate would work out a deal, negotiate the final bill, and then it would be voted on by both houses. Well, we get to the House concurrence. And again, there’s a lot of good speeches, uh, both, uh, both for and, and against, well, I wouldn’t say the speeches, uh, supporting it were good. Uh, we still had the same old thing with, uh, Reverend, uh, Gary click and Josh Williams being a bit aggressive about it. Kind of, I would say they were verging on, on bullying people about this bill. Um, um.

[34:14] And so it came up for a vote, and this was at almost midnight, almost midnight Wednesday, Wednesday night, about 11.50 p.m. Is when they finally voted on it, substitute House Bill 8. And the House did agree to the concurrence, which means they did agree to the changes that the Senate had made. Um, I was a little bit, I was a little bit heartened because it was a 57 voted in favor of it and, and everybody else voted against it, which some of the concurrence votes that night were getting like 80 votes in approval. So it wasn’t a slam dunk for the RTRI supporters, but they did get it. And so what I wanted to do is, with this little epilogue here, just kind of highlight some of the thoughts that I had about this while I was watching the debate over the concurrence and the previous bill.

[35:23] So, first of all, the supporters of this RTRI bill, such as Reverend Click and Josh Williams, they didn’t care about parental rights when they voted to ban gender-affirming care this year. Because that was a parental rights issue as well. But they didn’t care about parental rights. They only care about parental rights when it comes to their religion.

[35:49] The entire debate on this bill from the opposition was time, manner, and place, not religion. It wasn’t a religious debate. Reverend Click and Josh Williams tried to claim that it was a religious freedom question, and it wasn’t. People opposed this bill was a broad spectrum of religious beliefs. It says, atheists like myself, Christians, other Christians, Catholics, Jewish people, some Muslims I heard opposed it. And they opposed it because of the time, manner, and the place. Which is, you can do that. Even with the rights in the Bill of Rights, there are some limitations considering time, manner, place. Like for First Amendment free speech, you can’t say, you can’t yell fire in a crowded theater, for example. And so they tried to, and Joel Penton with LifeWise also tried to characterize that this was an attack on Christianity, an attack on religion. It was not. It was time, manner, place. Nobody that opposed this bill said that parents did not have the right to direct the education of their children or that children shouldn’t get a religious education. What they opposed was that it was happening in the middle of the school day and disrupting the school day for everybody. That’s what people disagreed with.

[37:18] The other point, too, one other point that seems to get lost by the supporters was, you know, they trumpet Zorak v. Klassen, the Supreme Court decision in 1952 that said that RTRI programs didn’t necessarily violate the First Amendment. Well, that court decision held that whether to have an RTRI program or not, they left that, the Supreme Court left that to the school districts to decide.

[37:53] And people like Reverend Click and Josh Williams in supporting this bill took that decision away from the school districts. And none of the amendments that were offered to change the bill when it was in committee addressed the accountability and the enforcement issues that everybody has been harping about through this whole process. You know, there wasn’t any guardrails at all in the current law, and the amendments that were added didn’t address that. Some people say, well, it says that schools can do background checks. Schools could do background checks. If they’re allowed to do the policy any way they want to, they could require background checks. They didn’t need it to be specified in the law. A lot of people I talked to last night think that they put that in there to make it a minimal for some people on the fence to vote for it. Because then they could say, I’m protecting children.

[38:56] Also, Representative Click was wrong when he said it was about religious freedom. Parents can always take their kids out of school and homeschool them or enroll them in a religious school, take them out of a public school. I know Senator Brenner in the debate in the Senate on this bill cited Wisconsin v. Yoder, and he said that that meant that parents had the right to parental rights to direct the religious education. Well, Wisconsin v. Yoder, which was decided in 1972, was about allowing parents to remove kids from school due to religious beliefs. It wasn’t about RTRI programs. It was Amish parents removing their children from the public school system after the eighth grade because of their religious beliefs. They didn’t believe in continuing education past the eighth grade. And the Supreme Court said that they’re allowed to do that.

[39:59] And then the final couple of points I want to make about this whole process was that the two RTRI bills that we’ve been debating all year, House Bill 445 and Senate Bill 293, had massive public opposition. We had hundreds of written opposition testimony turned in for both bills. We had dozens of people show up in person to testify against the bills. A large coalition of people that support public education were against the bills.

[40:41] And so these bills could not be passed on their own. That’s why they had to stuff them into a bill that had already passed. And they did it in the dead of night, thinking that nobody was going to pay attention. But that’s what religious zealots do when they know that their extremist bills, their extremist policies, aren’t popular, is they hide them. They hide implementing them. They hide discussing them. Some of the committee hearings on this bill, both for substitute House Bill 8 and Senate Bill 293, they called these meetings like 72 hours before they had the committee hearing. And in one case, we didn’t get the—I think I mentioned this in the previous segment— We didn’t get the text of the updated, amended bill until after the deadline to submit testimony. So, you know, this is the stuff that these religious conservatives, these Christian nationalists do to manipulate the system to protect themselves.

[42:01] And the final point that I want to make about this whole process is that there are a lot of politicians who talk about protecting children, but they sure do a lot to hurt them. You had it with the gender affirming care ban. You had it with this RTR program thing because these disruptions in the school hurt all the kids in the school. It has nothing to do with school. It doesn’t improve their academic success. It’s just a way of disrupting the school and having LifeWise integrate itself into a public school. And also, too, I wanted to point, I just forgot about this point. RTRI programs have been going on in the state of Ohio for at least since the 1940s, and in some cases even longer. None of the current RTRI programs, other than LifeWise, lobbied for this bill. They were silent. They said nothing. They didn’t oppose it. They didn’t support it publicly. That should tell you something.

[43:17] But, you know, that’s water under the bridge. The bill passed. Schools will now be required to adopt RTRI policies across the state and so now I get to help the coalition partners that I worked with during this whole ordeal to come up with a template for a model policy that these school districts can pass and add to their policy book that will We’ll address many of the complaints we had about this law, about background checks, accountability, requiring that these third-party entities, if they occur during lunchtime, that they provide the lunch, they pay for the lunch. And things like that. So, you know, we move on. We lose some. We win some. We lose some. We move on, and we just try to work with what we have.

[44:15] Thank you for listening. For more information about the topics in this episode, please visit the episode page at glasscityhumanist.show.

[44:30] Glass City Humanist is an outreach of the secular humanists of Western Lake Erie. Sholee can be reached at humanistswle.org. Glass City Humanist is hosted, written, and produced by Douglas Berger, and he’s solely responsible for the content. Our theme music is Glass City Jam, composed using the Amplify Studio. See you next time!

[44:59] Music.