How Two Women Got Justice Over Their Sexual Harasser with Cami Roth Szirotnyak & Rachel Richardson

[0:00] This is Glass City Humanist, a show about humanism, humanist values, by a humanist. Here is your host, Douglas Berger. In this episode, part memoir, part step-by-step guide, On Drowning Rats, How Two Women Took Down a Sexual Harasser and How You Can Too, tells the triumphant story of Rachel Richardson and Cami Roth Sarasniak. Women who discovered they were sexually harassed by the same man, one of Toledo’s most prominent non-profit founders and fundraisers, and how they successfully and publicly sought justice. Glass City Humanist is an outreach project of the secular humanists of western Lake Erie, building community through compassion and reason for a better tomorrow.

[0:50] Music.

[0:59] All right, my guests today are Cami Roth Srezniak, and Rachel Richardson. They are co-authors of a book called On Drowning Rats, How Two Women Took Down a Sexual Harasser and how you can too. It’s part memoir and part step-by-step guide and about how they exposed a harasser that worked for a major nonprofit here in Toledo. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Can you tell us a little bit about yourselves?

[1:38] Rachel, you start. Okay, I’m a lifelong Toledoan, community advocate, performer, I’m a singer, and writer, and my education and professional background is a lot, is focused on non-profits locally and public art, and I think I already said advocacy, but those are sort of my, those Those are my avenues, advocacy, art, public art, and performance and social justice. And I’m Cammie. Last name is Roth Tharatniak, but again, calling me Cammie is just fine. I too am a lifelong Toledoan, and my background is English and public policy and administration, and quality improvement. I have a life coaching business. I’m becoming a master gardener. I’m an intersectional feminist. I write, I do a lot of things. But what has always been very important to me is basically using my voice to make things right.

[2:52] And that’s really how Rachel and I came together in this project was using our voices and having some shared interests, such as writing and advocacy and feminism, and also shared harassment by the same person.

[3:09] And is that how you two got together initially was because you found out that you were both harassed by the same person?

[3:18] Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Rachel. You tell your side, I’ll tell mine. Okay. Cami and I met almost exactly two years ago, like to the date. When I, at the time I had an anonymous Facebook page that was supposed to sort of be like one of those, you see them more on Twitter than Facebook, but it’s like those hot take accounts that are anonymous and they make quips about politics or whatever the news of the day is. And I sort of was coming out of a personal, I don’t know, very inward facing part of my life. I had just become a mom And a lot of things changed for me then. And I was sort of venturing back out into the public, but still was guarded and wanted to be anonymous about it. So I posted one day something about I’m here to talk shit. I’m Orange Julius, and I’m here to talk shit. My name was Orange Julius. And it set off a barrage of comments. And a woman said something about who, remembered me from long ago that we had a nice impact on each other and that whoever you know yes you’re here to talk shit but you know I love you and whoever doesn’t love you, you must be an asshole. Now, I knew this woman from working at a particular nonprofit several years ago, and the same.

[4:41] Person, this guy, was around us at the same time, and that guy was an asshole. So I was like, oh, she must be talking about this guy. And she wasn’t. But I commented back and said, oh, you must be talking about this guy. And she said, ew, why? Why would you want to even talk about him? And I said, oh, because he’s an asshole. And I had him removed from the board of the the organization where she and I knew each other from for sexual harassment.

[5:09] And she said, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you talking about? She had also been harassed by him and you’ll read more about that in the book. So fast forward a little minute where I’m starting to feel like, so I had, when I look back at my career, the time I spent with that nonprofit, in my mind I had sort of painted it as a failure. Because I didn’t meet fundraising goals or because I couldn’t last there or because it just, it wasn’t a pleasant professional memory for me. But what I started to in that moment realize was that having this guy removed from the board, that process, arduous and ugly and laborious and it was work and it ended in success. And so I was able to look back and say, wait a minute, I didn’t fail at fundraising. I succeeded at removing this guy from a position of power. So I posted something to that effect on Facebook. It was totally a humble brag, but it was like, I need to own this new feeling in my life. I need to evolve past this failure and into a success.

[6:17] So for my own sake. So, um… Said something to that effect in the post and then there was another barrage of comments, Hunt, you know 50 60 80 100 people. Oh my god. I know exactly you’re talking about that guy’s terrible I met him one time and I wanted to take a shower. Oh my god that guy He stuck his tongue in my ear at a fundraising event. Oh my god that guy he made me He asked me to sit on his lap. I mean, so it was just like, Off to the races and then that evening evening. Cami, take it from there.

[6:51] Okay, I did not know who this, who Rachel was. We, while we should have probably known each other in the very best thing that we have of interest, we didn’t know each other. And so I, was in bed at 10 o’clock at night, roughly with my husband, and we were watching TV. And I got a screenshot from my co-worker at the time, Amy. And it was that post that Rachel had talking about. And she was using the moniker Orange Julius. And the harasser was not named, but I knew exactly who she was talking about because I’d been sexually harassed by him in 2019. And where my story is different is that, I mean, this was going back, Rachel’s story starts at 2011, mine starts at 2019, was I had also gotten him removed from a position of power within a local highly leadership leadership committee having to do with homelessness and housing first policy. And I had submitted all of my documentation and, you know, got them removed and it was just very quietly swept under the rug. It was removed, but it was very quietly swept under the rug. And it wasn’t the same organization that Rachel was talking about. So I sat up in bed.

[8:09] And I was like shaking and like, look, look at this. I said to my husband, this is the harasser.

[8:18] And I knew it, like I knew that this had happened before. It likely happened after based on the information we received. I was just waiting for somebody else to say that it happened to them because I was a new director at the time. I’d been promoted at my job. I had just gotten my my master’s degree, had just been promoted at my job, then was sexually harassed by this guy. So I followed all of the steps that I knew to follow, but I was too scared to come forward in any other way because of who he was, all of the endorsements he had nationally, the type of fundraising he could do, and the type of power that he had. So I had this weird gut instinct the week prior, get your documentation, get everything that I had submitted to our human resources department and just sit on it. So I did, a week later, I got that screenshot. So I friend requested Orange Julius, who was Rachel, wrote my own little baby me too on that post. And the next day it was still on my mind. So I sent her a message and said, I don’t know you, I don’t know what the hell Orange Julius means other than the drink, which is great, But I just want you to know that I’ve been literally waiting for this day, just had a gut instinct to get my documents.

[9:41] I just want you to know that. I have very good documentation. So if you wanna do something about that, you just let me know. And here we are.

[9:51] Okay, and I was really intrigued with how the book is formatted as like a how-to guide for other women to use it if they’re being harassed. Rachel, did you start out the book to be that way, or did that just come from working with Cammie and…

[10:11] Well, we started writing a blog while we were actually going through the process of strategizing how we would have him removed from power. And so we knew that documenting our process was going to be really important. The idea to write a book came to us after the whole thing was done. He was resigned. He had resigned. But if I told you that I’m the reason that the thing is formatted like a workbook, I would be such a big liar. Because you may have heard Cammie mentioned that she is a quality control professional. So that is all her. That’s absolutely all her. Yeah. Yeah, we like to say, um, Rachel is the one who like keeps us moving. And I’m the one who like slows us down and tries to get us to put it down on paper so that for for Rachel, I mean, we both had our outcomes as to what we wanted to see through this. When we met for the first time, which was the weekend after we first messaged each other, we had the goal, the shared goal of, we want to get this person out of a position of power. And.

[11:21] We want that to be public, because while his, he has been removed from positions of power previously, it has been quiet, it has been swept under the rug, and he’s able to get back into literally the same spaces, such as what happened with the organization Rachel worked with, and continue to harm people. And if this person is supposed to be helping some of the most vulnerable people in the community, this is a much larger problem than anybody is willing to address for political reasons, for financial reasons, for social reasons, whatever. So we’re going to be the ones to do it. So Rachel and I had that shared goal. And because I knew, based on what some of my my friends have told mean.

[12:07] This is not a resource that is readily available. So why don’t we do that so that other people can see what we’re doing? Rachel referenced the blog. We would write a blog once a month. We would publish it, send it out to our very, very small little group of people who cared about what we were doing, and let them know not the specifics of who, because we didn’t need them to know who at that point, but more so the types of things that we were encountering along the way so that when other people want to come forward, they know both the challenges and the opportunities and the considerations, the risks, et cetera. And when we finally completed our outcomes, then Rachel had the, amazing idea, we should write a book. Now, me being a white, non-neurodivergent, heterosexual cisgendered male actually made me nervous to do this interview, even though I love the idea of the book and what both of you did. And you both mentioned how your privilege probably actually helped you accomplish your goal. How did you address that in the book specifically?

[13:21] Doug, thank you for being brave enough to do this interview. My husband was actually scared to read the book when he read that. He said, this is not for me. I was like, yeah, you’re right. Read it anyway. What was the second part of your question? I just want you to know we are grateful for your time, and you don’t have to be afraid. And it’s just, that is a thing. I mean, it’s something to be considered. There is, there is, there are demographics that make these things either easier to talk about or more difficult to talk about. So thanks for being willing to give it a try. Yeah, basically I was asking, you know, you acknowledged it, that you had privilege, and it probably helped you accomplish your goal. How did you address that in the book? Okay, yeah. I talk about a specific kind of privilege that I have, and that is that my dad is a very well-known and loved lawyer in Toledo. And so I just have like sort of a level of protection around me because of that, and I always have. I don’t know whether that had anything to do with how our taking down the harasser played out, but we do talk about sort of white women, and Cammie will talk about this with more, probably, academic terminology. But we.

[14:46] Enjoy a certain level of people of being believed off the bat More so than black women and women of color.

[14:53] Not always don’t get me wrong and in our and our abuse is minimized and and we went through all of that, and you’ll read about it in the book, but.

[15:03] We highlight some stories from black women and women of color who for a host of reasons, May have decided to not report abuse or harassment that they were experiencing. And what we kind of in a very general sense, and of course, this is like I’m saying, very, very general sense. What we learned is that white women might be more likely to report because we do have evidence of being protected by systems, at least more so than black women and women of color. And because black women and women of color grow up knowing that they are not protected by systems, they come, they figure out other ways to deal. And that’s either confronting it or leaving a situation because fuck it, I don’t even, I don’t wanna deal with this. Or it’s telling a person in the moment, you know, like back off, whether that works or not is a different, you know, that can go either direction. But yeah, in general, I think of course, white women have privilege. And we do sort of detail how that delineates in the book, but I’m sure, Cammie, do you have more things to say about that?

[16:13] Yeah, one thing we also address, very briefly, as you may have read in the introduction, is we know that it’s not just women being sexually harassed by men. And that’s why we do have definitions so that we’re all using shared language, what does cisgender mean and so on and so forth. And the approaches that Rachel and I took when we did some field interviews because we laid out what our social, socioeconomic, et cetera, privileges are, demographics, so to speak, in the US, the year 2023, as we know, she took the approach of going and speaking with women of color and Black women about their experiences, and I took the approach of talking with a friend of mine, a colleague of mine, who is in compliance and sees, is the recipient as the corporate compliance officer and as a Black woman, these complaints, sexual harassment complaints. So I wanted to learn, we got basically the micro level, the individuals themselves telling Rachel their stories, and then we’ve got this mezzo level, this intermediary level of an.

[17:35] Individual who is the recipient of those complaints and could tell us just anecdotally what she sees when Black women and women of color either do or do not report and how they report and what their approach is versus when white women come forward to her with reports of sexual harassment, whether they do or they do not, and they do, and how and what demand they have and how those differ. And that was important for us to tell that side of the story because the book has, it you I won’t say a formula to it, but there are worksheets that people can use. That doesn’t mean that we believe that everything that we did is going to work for every single person, and there are very clear reasons why. So one thing that we don’t want to come out of this book, is for somebody like me to take the book and beat another woman over the head and say, well, this is what you have to do. See, it worked. It worked for these people. Well, it may have worked for us for specific reasons. And regardless, when a woman says or an individual who’s been impacted by misogyny, as we like to say, because it’s not always just women identifying folks. When they say I’ve been sexually harassed, or they start to tell you a story, believe it.

[18:54] That’s the tenor of it. For more information about the topics in this episode, including links used, please visit the episode page at glasscityhumanist.show. And I noticed too that in a couple of places in the introduction and elsewhere, you talk about intersectional discussions. What did you mean by that and how was that important? Rachel, if you want to start. I’m going to let Kenny take that one. Oh, OK. Intersectional is a practice, or it’s not a practice. It is, when we say we’re intersectional feminists, we’re saying that we believe that feminists talk about wanting to address issues like sexism. But as intersectional feminists, we say you cannot address sexism without addressing racism. You can’t address racism without addressing ableism. You can’t address ableism without addressing homophobia. And all of these isms, so to speak, fall under the larger.

[20:03] Problem with the patriarchy. And that is a, that is the foundation upon which our country, U.S. specifically, has been built. Gloria Steinem says that people are linked, not ranked. And in a patriarchal society, we are very much, we’re ranked. So the more intersections you have.

[20:28] As a, if you are not a white individual, okay, if you have maybe an intellectual disorder, Okay, physical disorder. Okay, so these are all intersections then that make, your life potentially more challenged as data has shown us and your outcomes for a variety of elements can be impacted negatively. That’s what data tells us. So, intersectional feminists, we’re saying when we talk about, it’s important to us to have the conversations about, the differences in when and if black women and women of color come forward or trans women or, LGBTQ individuals whether they can come forward whether they feel safe enough to come forward whether they feel protected to come forward, That’s a different conversation than when Rachel and I talk about us coming forward and we wanted to acknowledge that as intersexual feminists It’s our responsibility to acknowledge that And I also noticed in reading the book that you never once named the harasser, the nonprofit, or the paper. Was that a conscious effort or were you just worried about being sued eventually? Legal issues. Yeah, that was definitely like that was a basic, a basic consideration.

[21:55] The other thing is though because this scenario happened so specifically in our nonprofit sector here in Toledo, I, personally wanted to sort of show that these are interchangeable. Like these characters in our story or these organizations in our story could be superimposed onto another story. There’s a lot of organizations have a signature event. A lot of organizations have offshoot programs that need fiscal sponsors or fiscal agents. A lot of organizations have a very high profile person as their main fundraiser, founder, director, executive director, whatever. So that I think our story is applicable to the world of nonprofits. We wanted to illuminate that. Power structures are such that board members on non-profits can do and say what they want to staff members and the power, I mean it’s just the staff member has very, very little recourse.

[22:57] For a lot of reasons and I think that that is applicable as I said to non-profits in general. I also, just because I’m kind of like, I like to throw extra creativity at things when possible. I liked the idea of certain things playing as characters in our story. And so that’s why we named people and things and places the way that we did. But yeah, and definitely, you know, we had a legality review conducted once we finished the manuscript. We definitely want to be careful not to get sued, and we want to make sure that, you know, that we’re doing things as, if you read the book, and you have, Doug, But when people read the book, they’ll see that we tried to do this as meticulously. We did this as meticulously as we could. We didn’t go public right away. We did our best to do our due diligence and go through every single pace so that whoever deserved protection got it. And in our opinion, the only person who didn’t deserve protection was the harasser. So we did our best to make sure that everybody, you know, all the organizations, we didn’t want to take away resources from homeless veterans, for goodness sake. We didn’t want to have anybody lose a job except for one guy. So we really did our best to protect everybody as much as we could.

[24:20] Yeah, and that’s kind of the ironic thing about it is, you know, there’s a lot more bad things that can happen to you when you try to hold somebody accountable that has power. Yeah. And what happens to the person that has the power? That was such a concern of mine. That was such, I mean, my neuroses are clear in the book about my fear for that. And basically my naivete about it as well. And I’m not the only one. And that was another reason why we wanted to share not just the how-to, but the memoir elements of it because we know that that fear is so real. Retaliation, fear of being sued, fear of being outcast in in whatever community you’re in. Those fears are very real.

[25:13] Yeah, I know in our community and our free thought atheist community, we’ve had people that have lost their jobs because they are harassers. And then they come back and they try to sue everybody that accused them. So I know it happens and it just boggles my mind that it happens that way. But you generally have people that say, well, if there’s not a criminal case, then it’s not true or something like that. Or the opposite. A question that, as I’ve been talking about this book with people, or even while Rachel and I were going through the process of trying to take down the harasser. And even a media individual asked, well, did you go to the police? Is he in jail?

[26:00] No. There’s so much that goes into that in terms of policy as well as statutory limitations as well. I mean, there’s just so much to it. And it ends up being that the law doesn’t favor the victim. It really doesn’t. Yeah, and you also have a lot of people that hear your story and you talk to them and they’re also saying, well, how many women did they harass and how long did it take? Well, this guy, he does this good thing. Yeah. And you’re like, well, it’s like even one incident should be too many, really. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, we got a lot of those questions. Oh, Rachel, we got these questions all throughout. Well, how many? How many people? How many incidents? How many stories? How many? How many? How many? There was this attempt, I think, to try to rationalize the scope of the abuse and harassment and other allegations that came forward. There was an attempt to quantify something, to try to rationalize why this behavior, how bad is the behavior, when these are qualitative things. And where we wanted to be very mindful, we talk about that too, where we wanted to be mindful is, like you said, one incident is too many incidents.

[27:30] People certainly can learn from that behavior. This was a not learning from the behavior type of story. And as a result, there were dozens of people harmed along the way. Now that does not mean though, where we wanted to be careful, that does not mean that people have to experience, people plural, have to experience the same thing that we did, that, there have to be, that’s why we didn’t put the information in there, exactly how many stories and exactly how many people and exactly how many times we were told. Because that creates a standard or a baseline for for others that there is no baseline, other than to say one is too many. This is Glass City Humanist, a show about humanism by a humanist.

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[28:30] I know what usually happens in these cases when it’s somebody that has some major influence is they’ll go into exile for a little bit and then they’ll come back. I know, Rachel, you had that happen where once you left the organization, that person came back. And you talk about whether or not somebody could be redeemed and you say you really don’t care. I’m that way, too. I think that once you’re gone, you’re gone. There’s no coming back from that, especially when you’re being given chance after chance after chance and you still do it. Do you still feel that same way or is there a way that somebody can be redeemed?

[29:13] I definitely still feel that way about this person. Right. The subject of our book. I think that, you know.

[29:23] One of the reasons I wasn’t afraid that he was going to sue us is because if he sued us so much more would be uncovered in litigation. He was terrified of anybody knowing anything else than what they know right now. This guy is really a problematic individual. I don’t see him redeeming himself to me in any way, shape, or form. As far as redemption in general, I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that question, honestly. It’s not that I want to pass on it necessarily, but I don’t know. I don’t know. I can’t watch Kevin Spacey movies anymore. I don’t want to watch Justin Tube and on CNN.

[30:03] I don’t want to, you know what I mean? I want to watch The Cosby Show, but I cannot watch The Cosby Show. I can’t listen to Michael Jackson anymore. And Human Nature is my all-time favorite song. Like, there’s something in my head. Oh, I didn’t know that. We saw you do it. We are sorry. What? We didn’t talk about that. Oh my god. What’s the sidebar about that? God. So that hurts my soul. But the fact that I hear one note of a Michael Jackson song and I feel it in my gut tells me that I have no choice in the matter. My soul has made the decision for me. So that’s all I got on that one. It’s a hard. We were actually asked by our book manager to talk about redemption. So we gave it exactly two paragraphs. It’s exactly what Rachel said.

[30:57] And our belief, or my belief, is…

[31:02] If another victim wants to consider that individual redeemed for them, that’s their choice. It’s my choice to say, I don’t care if you are or you aren’t, because to me, the damage is done. Now, there are other individuals in my life who have not sexually harassed me, but have admitted that they have sexually harassed others in the past.

[31:29] I wrestle with that. That’s a very, that is a difficult, difficult conversation. There’s so much, I’ll just say to kind of wrap that specific part up, because I think me talking about it is longer than we even gave the space in the book, is it’s a very personal choice as to what you want to lean into and lean back away from when somebody discloses. That. And also, if that were easy, somebody would have already written that. Somebody would have already like shared that formula. But I believe we’re humans, we are not widgets. And people make choices. All right. And now kind of along the same lines, Cammie, do you think that somebody that hasn’t experienced harassment the way you and Rachel did. Do you think somebody that hasn’t experienced that could have written this book. I believe that’s a great question. I believe that. The conversation about sexually sexual harassment is intentionally misleading and vague.

[32:41] Because it’s prevalent, because it happens so frequently in the workplace. And if you take down one, you’re going to take down many. So there is a very high level of protection. There are women who have, we’ve shared the book with, and a couple of my girlfriends and, like specifically my my girlfriends who have known since we were children said, I didn’t know I had been sexually harassed. So.

[33:17] Trainings. I was never even trained on what sexual harassment even was for years. I mean, it was really just a gut instinct that I had when I was first sexually harassed on the job when I was 17. That, oh yeah, this behavior is probably wrong. supervisor should do something about it. It wasn’t because I had a training. And that is just generally how it goes. So it’s kind of a way around not really answering your question, but I guess to put a fine point on it, yes, other women can write, other people who’ve been impacted by misogyny, other people who’ve been sexually harassed can absolutely write the story, but they have to first know what it is. And I don’t believe that people do. I believe that it is, if your agency, your organization, your workplace where you volunteer has a policy, that shit is dusty and it is not being revisited. And if somebody is sexually harassed and they go to their supervisor about it, I am willing to bet that nobody knows what the hell to do next. Even if you have a policy. So, yeah, people could write the book, but…

[34:35] Again, if they could, it would have already been done. If they knew how to, if they knew the language. So we were very clear in the beginning of the book, we wanna define what these terms mean. So you know what we’re talking about and what we’re not talking about. The problem then becomes you see yourself in that story and then you have to deal with that. We quote the statistic that was in the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission’s report from 2016 that 90% of people who have been sexually harassed do not formally report it. Now, I’ve worked in data research and market research for 20 years, and including the Lucas County Health Assessment. And I can tell you, we try to control for variables. We try to control for things that we know people are going to respond more positively about or more negatively. are going to report, you know, so we can try to control for that. This is not a statistic that you can control for. It sucks as a statistic. 90 percent of people who are sexually harassed do not formally report it.

[35:50] What does that mean to you? That they don’t report it, yeah, it’s it’s a problem. What, like somebody like me, either other men or maybe even other women, what is it that we could do to try to change this narrative with sexual harassment in particular to help have more people report it? What can we do to try to make that happen?

[36:21] To echo something that Cammie said earlier, believe women when they tell you what they’ve been through, when they tell you their experiences. And as a man, I think what you can do is listen for other men or other people saying disrespectful things. Just try to do your part to elevate the discourse in the rooms you find yourself in. Check people when they’re using harassing language or making people feel uncomfortable. Or don’t laugh at jokes. You know, I mean, it can be subtle. Just don’t show approval for behaviors that have been approved of for so long to the point where women don’t know when they’re being sexually harassed because it’s so baked in to just how we communicate with each other or how men pay attention to women. Just don’t, don’t.

[37:21] Make an inhospitable environment for that sort of behavior and communication. Break with sexist solidarity. Okay, as we kind of wrap up our talk today, the book comes out April the 27th. Is that correct? Yeah. And it’s available for pre-order now. And that’s at girlpartspp.com. That’s right. And now when it does get released, is it going to be available in regular booksellers, or are they still going to have to go through the website to get it?

[37:57] Any and all forms of, but I mean, we hope that people will order through their very favorite independent bookstore, either online or in person, depending on who all we can, who all we partner with to have inventory in their stores. But yeah, independent bookstores would be my personal preference for people to purchase the book. It’ll also be available on Amazon, and I’m sure that we will be at events and things, and we’re going to have book signing events, and you know, there’s festivals and things in the summer. We’ll probably have tables and places. So I hope that we’ll be sort of ubiquitous for the next several months. Yes. Gathered Volumes will be our local, as well as People Called Women. They will be our two local bookstores. So far, they’re carrying the book, or will carry it. Quick note, it’s Gathering Volumes. Gathering Volumes. Thank you. Quality control. Yeah. I’m doing my part. Okay. And, Cami, do you have any last words or last point that you want to make before we close out today?

[38:59] I really appreciate that you have spent this time with us, that you responded to us right away to be able to have this conversation. Rachel acknowledged our gratitude to you as white, non-neurodivergent, et cetera, et cetera, male who is willing to have the conversation. And thank you for that. That is very much appreciated. And if I could leave information or a nugget of information that you don’t even have to buy the book, we hope you do. It is just this document. If you are sexually harassed, document it right away and keep a copy. There’s so many reasons why, but that is the most important thing to do besides just simply believing somebody when they tell you. Thank you.

[39:54] Yeah, go ahead, Rachel. Do you have? Yeah, Doug, you’re our very first interview on this media blitz that we’re about to do this week. So thank you very much for being so friendly and warm and kind. It’s a great way to start off, this next chapter in our book, so to speak. So just thank you so much for having us. Yes, and I really think that you took the time to speak with me. And again, the book is called On Drowning Rats, How Two Women Took Down a Sexual Harasser, and How You Can Too. Thank you for listening. For more information about the topics in this episode, please visit the episode page at glasscityhumanist.show. Glass City Humanist is an outreach of the Secular Humanists of Western Lake Erie. Sholi can be reached at humanistswle.org. Glass City Humanist is hosted, written, and produced by Douglas Berger, and he’s solely responsible for the content. Our theme music is Glass City Jam, composed using the Amplify Studio. See you next time!

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